«A union-sponsored lockout" IT IS NOW over a year and a half since workers at the Hormel meatpacking plant in Austin, Minnesota, began their strike against wage cuts and changes in work practices. The strike has become a national focus for workers wanting to fight for jobs and a living wage and against undemocratic and bureaucratic trade-union organization. (1)
Ben Stone interviewed two of the strikers on November 20. Jim Guyette was suspended as president of the strikers' union branch, Local P-9, when the parent union placed it under trusteeship. Ray Rogers is the director of Corporate Campaign, which acts as a consultant body to unions under attack from corporations.
back and bring back democracy within the trade-union movement?
Rogers. I think one of the big things that has come out of the P-9 struggle is that we've really torn away the facade that the top leadership of the unions has put up. You know, reporters have been going to these AFL-CIO conventions down in Bal Harbor, Florida, and they come out and say, "What a waste of time. We have to cover it. But nothing ever comes out of it." It would really be good if the rank and file members who pay their union dues could see what goes on at these conventions. They would see that their so-called leaders have no solutions for their problems.
Q. So what we need are more organizations like P-9 to further this struggle?
Guyette. The P-9 struggle didn't start out this way. It started out as a simple labor dispute and it turned into a much bigger thing because a lot of facades have been torn away. The
Question. Since the history of P-9 has been pretty well publicized, let us open with the question as to where P-9 stands right now in its struggle with the Hormel Company?
Guyette. Well, the struggle involves not only the Hormel Company, but the United Food & Commercial Workers' International Union (UFCW), which is doing the bidding of the company at this point. The company and the international officials are both saying that the boycott of Hormel products has to stop, which tells us that the boycott is having an effect on the company. We know the company is laying off people in other plants. We know the company has sharply reduced its production in the Austin plant and other plants.
The company refuses to put anybody back to work. And it's the international union which has now admitted in a letter that they did not negotiate anybody's jobs back and don't anticipate anybody getting back to work, as well. The international union has been in bed with the company for too long.
The situation now can be best characterized as the first-ever unionsponsored lockout. We have an international union that is going to the courts to circumvent our democratic local and destroy the strike itself; that is taking donations sent to us by other unions; and which pays people 40 to 50 US dollars a week to cross picket lines.
Rogers. The UFCW has put P-9 into receivership. We want to get that reversed, get our building back and get the democratic process going again. There's no question that the 18 only thing that has allowed this company to hold out so long is the multi-million dollar smear campaign that has been orchestrated by the leadership of the UFCW and supported by the top leadership of the AFL-CIO [national trade-union federation]. If this were just a struggle between the workers in Austin and the company this strike would have been won by us a long time ago.
Q. You say that the heads of the AFL-CIO have given their support to the international union. How do you assess that and how do you plan to cope with it?
Rogers. Well, in terms of assessing it, certainly the leadership of UFCW and the AFL-CIO feel much more comfortable sitting down with the corporate executives than they do sitting down with the rank and file. Their interests are not the interests of the rank and file worker. If they were, they could never be involved in this betrayal of our union.
How to deal with it? A strong message has been going out to the rank and file workers that they have to take away the power of the big banks who have stolen their economic wealth and used it to clobber the workers over the head. The workers have to take back their unions from the leaders who have betrayed them. The rank and file workers must stop allowing five or ten people to come into a union meeting and control the union.
Q. So part of your fight is to educate the rank and file of any union that has a similar bureaucracy to fight only argument that the international can use against us is the argument of dual unionism, that somehow we are not marching in step with union solidarity.
I would like to make the analogy of a responsible parent who does not simply bring forth a child but who cares for the child and is responsible for its upbringing. The irresponsible parent may even abandon the child. Now that goes against our grain. Yet people are reluctant to call this international union an irresponsible union for its abandonment of our local union. Not only have they abandoned us but they are doing everything in their power to starve us out.
I think it's time we started calling things the way they are. If there are illegitimate, irresponsible union officials who are more interested in rings on their fingers than they are about representing their rank and file, then let's say that and let's do something about it. Let's clean up our own union movement.
Q. What are some of the things that can be done to clean up the union movement?
Guyette. Well, we come up with two paths that can be taken, one of which is to work from within. Some are doing that. The other way is to create a legitimate labor organization which the workers see as an alterna-
1. For background articles on the strike see "Strike by Local P.9 stirs US labor" by Roger Horowitz, 'International Viewpoint' No. 96, April 7, 1986; "Hormel strike signals growing union militancy" by Nat Weinstein, 'IV' No. 103, July 14, 1986; and "Lessons from the Hormel strike" by Frank Lovell, 'IV' No. 109, November 24, 1986.
International Viewpoint 26 January 1987
tive. That was the seed for the development of the CIO in this country. That is what we are doing in Austin.
The people in Austin decided to set up the North American Meatpackers Union (NAMPU) because they want a democratic union representing the rank and file and to break up the prostitute relationship that exists between the Hormel Company and the international union. Then you will have real collective bargaining taking place.
We must also deal with the problem of the cops and the courts and the Republican and Democratic parties who claim to represent the people. But P-9 is in a situation where it is dependent on people's ability to help them in this struggle through financial contributions, through boycotting Hormel products and through their solidarity and support. Right now the key focus has to be on the two main enemies we are confronted with, the Hormel Company and the international union.
Q. Where does NAMPU stand right now in its quest for certification?
Guyette. There is going to be an election within the plant for the people to vote on who they want to represent them. At this point there are between 800 and 900 people in Austin who are victims of the agreement between the Hormel Company and the UFCW. The only way these people will ever get their jobs back is if NAMPU prevails in an election. People inside the plant who scabbed signed a petition to vote for a new union. The UFCW is delaying the vote because they have made an assessment of those in the plant and know that, if a vote were held today, they would lose the vote.
In the plant?
Guyette. In the plant. Because people have seen what kind of an organization the UFCW is and people don't want any part of it. And the Austin plant typifies what's happening in the meatpacking industry. The UFCW leadership has been unable to organize in the meatpacking industry because people do not want to join a union in order to give concessions. That's why there is so much ferment being generated in other plants and other companies in the meatpacking industry.
Q. Isn't part of the problem overcoming the apathy of the rank and file within the other locals, within the other unions?
Guyette. We think this can be overcome very easily, if there is a will to do it. It was overcome in Austin. Union meetings used to be attended by 40 to 50 people. All of a sudden there were big meetings attended by hundreds. There can be many Austins.
Rogers: There are some locals that have only one meeting a year. But even in those cases where they may hold more meetings the rank and file is never given an opportunity to get up and say anything. There's never a presentation about the kind of a program that people can believe in, no kind of vision. So that's the situation you have from the international structure on down. And that's because if the rank and file starts taking some interest and wants to do something, it might decide to vote the people at the top the heck out and have a real union, like P-g, where the members decide everything.
I believe that rank and file workers across the country, everywhere -whether they're meatpackers, or steelworkers, machinists, clerical workers, airline workers — I believe the potential is inherent in all of them to be a P-9.
Q. Did you anticipate the kind of problems that did arise in the course of the struggle with the cops, the National Guard and the UFCW?
Guyette. Well, I knew the international union had made deals in the past and at least was very suspicious of that. I knew they were capable of the harassing phone calls to our homes. They tried to threaten and intimidate us, told us we would never come home alive if we went to certain meetings. They pretended to be other people on the phone in order to trap us into making certain statements. They did many underhanded things. But I didn't anticipate the bigness of it.
Q. Has the support that the P-9 struggle generated throughout the country been able to tip the scales against the Hormel Company, do you think?
Rogers. We generated support from between 3,000 and 4,000 unions from every state in this country as well as support from organizations abroad. We also gained the support of organizations like the National Organization for Women and many private individuals. I think the tremendous support we have generated has tipped the scales against the company. In fact, if it weren't for the multi-million dollar smear campaign waged against us by the top officials of UFCW and supported by the heads of AFL-CIO, I really doubt that we would have needed a strike at all. It is because of that widespread support and solidarity for us, expressed throughout the labor movement, that we have been able to survive and strike back as effectively
UNIONBUSteRS
Coming soon to a local near you! as we have. And we are growing stronger, not weaker.
Q. And you still look forward to victory?
Rogers. Absolutely. We have two battles we are going to win. One against the Hormel Company and one against the bureaucratic misleadership that has been undermining our whole struggle.
Guyette. You're only ignored if you're ineffective. We have certainly not been ignored by the cops, the courts, the National Guard, the company or the international union. We must be doing something right.
Q. The question is, will you prevail against all those odds?
Guyette. A lot of unions, civic and religious organizations, many thousands of prominent and ordinary people, are part of our support group, which only keeps getting bigger. The company and the international leaders have been trying every trick in the book to starve us out, freeze us out. It hasn't worked and it will not work.
Rogers. We have a situation where the local was put in trusteeship. Then suddenly a contract settlement is announced. Word is sent out all over the country that the strike is settled. But people everywhere keep saying, , "We haven't heard from the P-9 leadership that the strike is over." And nobody believes it's over. We will not allow the company, the international union, or the New York Times to decide when the struggle is over. Only the rank and file membership will decide that.
Another promising development is
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International Viewpoint 26 January 1987
the tough resistance of the rank and file in unions around the country to those of their top leadership who want to rally around their fellow bureaucrats in the UFCW. For example, William Winspisinger head of the International Union of Machinists], who is supposed to be such a liberal, progressive labor leader. He really did all he could to put P-g under. He was put in his place by his own local leadership and his rank and file.
Likewise Vincent Sombratto, head of the letter carriers, who came out very strongly in favor of P-9. But in the beginning, Sombratto really badmouthed P-9, but the rank and file of the letter carriers told us, "We put Mr. Sombratto in his place very quickly and he changed his tune." And this was a beautiful thing that happened all over the country. I could cite many more examples of this kind.
). Do you think that the charg of dual unionism has had any effec on anyone in the labor movement?
Rogers. The detractors, who are trying to blacklist everybody involved in supporting P-9, claim that we are weakening and undermining the labor movement because we are trying to set up an alternative to the bureauc. racy of the UFCW. As Jim has said, the NAMPU situation is not a decertification, it's a re-certification. NAMPU consists of working people who want to have a legitimate, democratic union to represent them and engages in real collective bargaining to get the best wage and working conditions they can get.
Q. Does this charge of dual unionism bother you?
Rogers. It bothers me that some people are misled by this charge of dual unionism. What was the history of the AFL and CIO? Was that dual unionism? If it was, thank goodness.
Guyette. I don't think the charge of dual unionism has any credence whatsoever. They have made all kinds of charges against us. The more desparate they get the more desparate the charges. When I first got elected, the officers who got displaced, along with the company, promoted the idea that I was a John Bircher [right-winger] and Ray was a communist. Anybody with any sense could figure out that two such complete opposites could never work together.
Then they attacked me in the local press, which is controlled by the company, as being a socialist and from a socialist I went to a communist. Now the latest is that I'm a Lyndon La Rouche-ite [proto-fascist]. So I've come full circle. This is the mark of their desparation. 20
Q. You have remarked that the Democratic Governor of Minnesota, Rudy Perpich, sent in the National Guard against P-9 and no Democratic politician stood up for P-9. Does this mean that most strikers have become disillusioned with the Democratic as well as the Republican Party?
Rogers. I can tell you one thing, from talking to the rank and file in Austin I have a hard time believing that anyone cast a ballot for Rudy Perpich.
Is it true that there were some candidates who ran on an independent ticket in Austin?
Guyette. There were some people who ran, but I think that Austin, Minnesota has to be viewed in the context of the American public itself. Ronald Reagan was elected by only 32 per cent of the people in this country; 23 per cent voted for Mondale; 45 per cent didn't vote at all. That means that there are a tremendous number of people who are frustrated and disillusioned in the twoparty system.
Look who came to Austin: Jesse Jackson. The idea of Reverend Jackson coming to Austin would have been a foreign idea just three years ago. But it's not so foreign anymore. In fact, it happened.
Q. Jesse Jackson has given no indication that he is ready to split from the Democratic Party. Would it not be better to have an independent political party based on the labor movement - a Labor Party?
Rogers. Certainly. I would like to see a political party that really represents the interests of the working people.
Guyette. I definintely think there is a need for a party to represent the working people, a party to represent the farmers, who are working people. It seems to me that there's something wrong in this country when farmers go broke and working people lose their jobs. We have grain inventories stockpiled and yet the lines of the hungry and the displaced seem to grow and grow. There is a need for change and that is growing day by day.
Q. Is there any kind of publication that P.9 puts out to keep the public informed as to the develop-. ments taking place in P-9?
Guyette. Before the trusteeship, we had a publication called The Unionist that came out every week. The UFCW has taken that over, which they claim they have a right to do. They have reduced it to a comic book, making caricatures of
Ray and myself. Our support group in Austin is putting out a newsletter which is distributed on Fridays, together with groceries, called the Support Report. You can get it by writing to the United Support Group, PO Box 396, Austin, MN 55912.
NAMPU is in the process of putting out its own paper and they've asked me to help out, which I will be able to do in a limited way. The need is certainly there for that kind of a paper, but the primary need at the moment is to feed people so they don't starve and to keep utilities going so they don't freeze.
Q. Has NAMPU been able to draw up any kind of a specific program outlining your perspectives?
Guyette. I believe that is taking place right now. A program is being drawn up by the Charter Committee of NAMPU. I am not on that committee. I did not sign the petition for NAMPU, because I am involved in a lawsuit against the international union, in the course of which I will demonstrate the collusion between the Hormel Company and the UFCW, and it will be brought out in testimony.
Rogers. We look for a good quality of life for every worker. In order to achieve that we have to realize that there is a real financial power behind every corporation and every politician. And certainly we need a political party that is not going to permit poverty in the midst of plenty and is going to eliminate wars of destruction on this earth.
Q. How have your personal lives been affected since the strike first began in August, 1985?
Rogers. A key element of my life revolves around the objectives of Corporate Campaign, to help the unions in their struggles with the corporations. We were hoping to buy a building so we could turn more resources into the campaign. But because of the long, drawn-out struggle, we have turned into a very poor organization, financially.
I have basically lived in Austin for over a year-and-a-half. We put everything on the line down there, including our lives. I have a few more grey hairs. But this kind of a struggle makes you feel stronger and more inspired.
Guyette. We cannot talk in terms of what price has been paid in this struggle. How can you measure price in terms of the friends, supporters and the tremendous solidarity we have garnered in all parts of the country and abroad. Nobody should have to go through what we have had to go through in Austin. Eventually the whole labor movement will benefit from our struggle.
International Viewpoint 26 January 1987