EL SALVADOR
Behind the FMLN/ government accords
Interview with Mario Lopez THE FOLLOWING INTERVIEW with Mario Lopez, a member of the politico-diplomatic commission of the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front (FMLN), was conducted by Eric Toussaint during Lopez' European tour in November 1991. Lopez spoke at length about the current negotiations between the Salvadoran government and the FLN, as well as the current debates among Salvadoran revolutionaries.
the FMLN participate in a civilian police force, which was accepted; this demand was agreed to at the New York meeting. We will therefore be part of one of the armed forces which will be in charge of internal public order. This is part of a constitutional reform which has been provisionally approved, and which must be ratified. It will stipulate that the role of the armed forces will be limited to the defense of national sovereignty and the territorial integrity of the country. The maintenance of internal order will therefore be practically the sole preserve of the civilian national police. • Besides the army there is also the police force of the Interior Ministry. What will happen to this body?
It will be dissolved. All the former police forces will be disbanded and replaced by the Civilian Police. • Will these forces be part of the army?
Actually, the Minister of Defense also has authority in the domain of public security. One of the first agreements concerns precisely the separation of public security from defense. There will be separate ministers for each. Another guarantee involves the establishment of a multiparty body charged with overseeing the peace accords. This is the National Commission for the Consolidation of Peace (COPAZ). The government has two delegates as does the FMLN, and each party or coalition represented in the national assembly has one delegate. • And the army?
The army participates as one of the two government delegates. In reality the government has designated two soldiers including one who has retired. Another guarantee is the involvement of the United Nations, not only as a supervisor of the accords through its El Salvador bureau (ONUSAL), but also through the involvement of the Security Council which has
C OULD you tell us about the recent accords signed in New York between the Salvadoran government and the FMLN under the aegis of the United Nations?
The Secretary-General of the United Nations initiated these negotiations at the request of [US Secretary of State] Baker and Soviet foreign minister Bessmertnykh, who figured that the Salvadoran discussions were at an impasse, or, as Perez de Cuellar put it, that it was necessary to cut the gordian knot.
The FMLN was interested in finding ways to become integrated into the legal political life of the country. We began by insisting on the total demilitarization of Salvadoran society so that all political forces be free to carry out their activities.
....... These are the demands that we put forward in the autumn of 1990 but which were never met.
Later, theFMLN made a proposal that constituted a turning point: rather than conducting negotiations in two phases, we proposed having a single phase which would consist of a definitive cease-fire with the participation of the FMLN in the armed forces as a guarantee. The government again refused, which brought the negotiations to an impasse. For our part, we figured that there were not enough guarantees if this condition was not met. At that point the Secretary-General of the UN called the meeting between the FMLN and president Cristiani.
We than proposed a series of various guarantees; if one failed there would be others. We demanded for example, that supported the proposals made by the Secretary-General.
All of this does not imply that we have abandoned our plan of totally demilitarizing Salvadoran society, which is part of our program; we have stated that we will continue to work for this. • What has been obtained as far as the army is concerned and what will be the effect of the purge of the army?
Those elements in the army who have been involved in crimes or corruption will be thrown out; this includes far more than just the officers of La Tandona'. An ad hoc commission will be formed charged with investigating each of its officers, in both the army and the security forces. This commission, which will be named by the president upon recommendation of the 23 UN Secretary-General, will investigate
December'9, 1991 • #218 International Viewpoint
EL SALVADOR each officer and noncommissioned officer. • Who will be part of this commission?
This is one of the subjects of the discussion that has not yet been resolved. COPAZ will have to respect the recom mendations of the commission. • There are several possible outcomes: military or civilian tribunals can be established or an amnesty law could be enacted. What is your position on this?
One of the items on the agenda concers the retirement of army officers. This commission will decide who will be retired and who will be judged.
On the economic and social plane some progress has been made in New York. A very important gain has been the recognition of the current forms of property ownership in the zones controlled by the FMLN. Juridical forms must be found to legalize this situation. There is also an agreement to allow the peasants to remain on the land they have occupied at the beginning of this year. The government must give land holdings exceeding 245 hectares? to the peasants and begin to buy land put up for sale which will later be distributed.
In fact, after the agrarian reform decreed by former president Duarte, some lands should have been sold, the owners had to sell them, either at their own initiative or because they were larger than the limit. Many land holdings were put up for sale without the state buying them. In other words, the body formed to do this did not acquire any land at all. Today the government has begun to buy them in order to distribute them.
Another agreement that has been made deals with the means by which the government can arrange for communities to directly receive foreign financial aid. Finally, another agreement concerns economic and social policies with the participation of the government, private firms and workers. This involves a forum of consultation [roundtable discussions berween the employers, the workers and the government] that has not yet been formed, and the workers will no doubt be disadvantaged because they lack the support of the experts that the government and private companies have. Popular organizations are today searching for this type of support. • This is a familiar problem in Latin America: the peasants succeed in obtaining land, but they lack credit which eventually forces them to sell their land to pay back their debts.
The same is true for technical assistance. We raised the question of revising the credit system for workers during the 24 course how tao apply tuss agreements. of New York talks. The question remains of International Viewpoint #218 • December 9, will no doubt be necessary to bring this up again during the negotiations and in the forum of consultation. As far as the question of technical assistance is concerned, foreign cooperation has an important role to play, particularly non-governmental cooperation, which is already happening through the nongovernmental organizations (NGOs), but which must be augmented. • The Inter-American Development Agency (IDA) has announced that it will give 500 million dollars in aid to the Salvadoran government. This aid is surely not without strings attached.
Certainly not. Especially with such a large sum. In my opinion, the government will try to destabilize our social base by using these credits. This will be a new area of conflict. • If on the military plane a cease fire is signed, what will this mean from the point of view of the arms you now possess?
Up until now we have never discussed the disarming of the FMLN. This has not been part of the negotiations and we have not been disposed to speak about it. A cease-fire implies putting down our arms, but what are the necessary criteria as far as a timetable is concerned? We have said that a cease-fire will be possible when the accords have been applied. But each party has a different reading of what this means. We will have to reach an agreement about this. • Are there still outstanding questions to be taken up in the negotiations?
Questions concerning economic and social matters, human rights, judicial power, the electoral system and finally the ways in which the United Nations will enforce the agreements must be taken up. When all this has been taken care of arrangements concerning the technical aspects of the cease-fire, for example the stationing of troops, can begin. A commission has already been formed to deal with this. At the end of the time table we will know how the cease-fire will take place. • If a cease-fire does occur, what objectives will the FMLN set for itself for the 1994 elections?
We figure that peoples' power must be strengthened. What we call peoples' power comes out of the framework of the dual power that today exists in the country.
This involves the expansion of various forms of social and political organization. The campaign for the 1994 elections will come afterwards. • "People's Power" can have different meanings. But when we speak of power it is something more than the 1991 simple free development of mass
• 1 organizations that demand power. It means the exercise of power, and five
Do not simply a demand, the right to
T organize. In your opinion what does ral popular power mean?
In El Salvador today, it is essentially a parl question of a level of popular organization org and the limited exercise of power. There
Ten!
instances bur already exist self- management at several levels: a broad the independence of popular organizations and the exercise of certain functions with a larger autonomy for them, which we call
"community"
or "self-management".
Firstly, peace implies that municipal powers can be exercised, but it remains to be seen at what level the population will limit municipal power in relation to what exists today. This involves in any case, the development of popular power. It also remains to be seen how that will function in relation to judges of the peace?
3, and so on.
We think that it is necessary that the people exercise broader control. The national civilian police in the contested zones must be that of the people themselves; this implies certain limitations of traditional power to the advantage of popular power.
The joint employer-worker economic and social boards must become a mechanism which permits unions and popular organizations to participate in the elaboration of economic and social policy; this is part of popular power.
• Will the FMLN participate as such in the elections of 1994, or will it be integrated into an electoral front or again support a coalition of other forces?
We think that the FMLN must participate in the elections as a party, but in the framework of a large left-center coalition.
We hope that there will be a broad regroupment and we are already discussing with all political parties except the
National Republican Alliance (ARENA)
hich is currently in power. we consid e participation of the Christian Demo racy (CD) in this regroupment as essential.
1. La Tandona refers to the leading military officers in the Salvadoran army. These elements supported the low intensity war strategy of the United States. They also directly profited from US economic aid.
2. In 1984 the Christian Democratic goverment of
Jose Napoleon Duarte began to institute its "agrarian reform" (which had been decreed by a military junta in
1980). It sought to take the initiative on the land question and thus erode the FMLN's peasant base. 469 landholdings of over 500 hectares were distributed to
322 cooperatives as well as lands that belonged to the state. This affected 30,000 peasant families (there were officially 220,000 landless families at the time).
Most of the large landholders managed to avoid the provisions of the law which called for the limitation of landholdings to 245 hectares and the sale of lands larger than that size.
Many cooperatives suffered from a lack of credits and technical assistance as well as market fluctuations.
Others were forced to abandon their land because they were located in the war zone.
3. In Central America the jueces de paz (judges of the peace) were responsible for ensuring order, which they often did through violent means.
• The FMLN is today composed of five political-military organizations.4 Do they intend to unify?
The FMLN intends to act in the electoral field as it has in war — as a party — a party with five organizations. But the five organizations continue to function as currents, each with their own political bureau. Of course, the leading bodies of the legal electoral party will resemble somewhat what is today the general command of the FMLN. The various bodies of this new party - central committee, political bureau, and so on, will be a representation of the five organizations of the FMLN. • For the moment the FMLN is an underground organization. If the cease-fire is obtained, it will need public representatives, public meetings, open recruitment, holding of congresses, and so on. What is going to happen?
We must be able to have the same guarantees as the other parties. In fact, we even want to see more rights for all parties — a truly democratic system. During the negotiations we must not let our guard down, but there are always risks. • Will each organization in the FMLN retain its own leaderships? Legal work is not the same as underground work, which for reasons of security demands a strictly hierarchical (even "vertical") functioning.
Changes will be needed. There are already discussions in each organization of the FMLN about how to find a less hierarchical mode of functioning than that mposed by the war. • What is the state of the mass movement in the framework of these megotiations? Has there been a setback or advance of the social movements?
The peasant movement has been permaps the most active and this has been in zones under government control. There have been more than thirty land accupations since the beginning of the year of which only four have been violentsuppressed by the authorities. The govemment has sought to negotiate with the peasant organizations on the condition that they do not occupy other lands.
On the other hand, on the trade union level the response to the measures taken the government - privatizations, the dissolving of the Institute charged with price regulations and so on - has been insufficient, even if there have been some notable actions especially among public sector workers. The government was forced to announce that it would not coninue with its privatizations due to the response of the workers. The neighborhood organizations have not been very
EL SALVADOR THE NEW YORK ACCORDS ON September 25 1991, the FMLN and the Salvadoran government signed a "general peace agreement" for the first time. The following are some of the points agreed upon in the text as well as those currently being negotiated.
* The creation of a national commission for the consolidation of peace (COPAZ), legally constituted by law and charged with enforcing the agreements. The COPAZ will be made up of two representatives of the government, two of the FMLN, and a representative of each party or coalition represented in the National Assembly. The archbishop of San Salvador and a delegate of the UN mission for El Salvador will serve as observers. "The government and the FMLN should consult COPAZ before adopting decisions or measures relative to the peace accords"; " COPAZ will be in direct contact with the president"; "COPAZ will have the authority to prepare the necessary legislative proposals in accord with the agreements"
"The creation of COPAZ will be sanctioned by the resolution adopted by the UN Security Council on the peace accords."
* The purge of the armed forces will be conducted according to the set criteria and according to a calendar which will be taken up by another accord.
"The armed forces will be represented by two of its members".
* The reduction of the armed forces will be defined by an accord between the two parties;
The doctrine of the armed forces will be revised according to a separate accord and should be founded principally on the defense of national sovereignty in the framework of respect for human rights and constitutional authority.
* Concerning the reorganization of the armed forces: according to the agreement signed in Mexico in April 1991, the army must be subordinate to constitutional authorities and respect for human rights.
* The creation of a national police force (independent of the army) and the dismantlement of the current security forces. The police personnel will be reconstituted after an investigation of each of its current members and by the integration of new police officers, ("the pluralistic system of recruitment and training"); the independence of the police vis-a-vis the Minister of Defense will be the object of a constitutional amendment.
* The agrarian reform. Land holdings will be limited to to 245 hectares; confiscated lands will be compensated and distributed to the poor peasants as well as State lands which are not part of forest reserves; land that has been redistributed in the war zones will be maintained. The negotiations will also take up the question of reducing the social dislocations resulting from structural reform programs and measures to promote community development.
* A discussion of economic and social questions with the participation of representatives of the government, of labor and of management. * dynamic but I think that they will be in the future. These organizations and the most disadvantaged neighborhoods will be part of the forum of consultation. The strength of the workers in certain areas threatened with privatization, like social security, is considerable. • Are you optimistic about the perspectives for El Salvador?
We face many challenges, perhaps even more complex than during the war. During the war we had to resolve the many organizational problems of a popular armed force; buying boots, obtaining ammunition, but in the present situation we have more complex problems. But I am optimistic, we are all optimistic today. • Concerning the general political debate, do some of the recent declarations made by FMLN leaders represent a political shift?
It is true that some of the declarations made by various members of the general command would suggest this. Statements by Joaquin Villalobos, Shafik Handal or 4. They are: the People's Revolutionary Army, the Popular Liberation Forces, the National Resistance, the Central American Revolutionary Workers' Party, and the Salvadoran Communist Party. 5. See IV 206. Joaquin Villalobos is the leader of the People's Revolutionary Army; Shafick Handal is the Secretary General of the Salvadoran Communist Party, and Ferman Cienfuegos is the leader of the Popular Liberation Forces. They are all members of the general 25 command of the FMLN.
EL SALVADOR
Ferman Cienfuegos vary from one another. But this does not prove that there are serious problems within the FMLN, but demonstrates on the contrary the richness of the discussions within the organization.
The FMLN is made up of five organizations; we are living in a wartime situation and each of the organizations has its own army. The choice of strategies, tactics, and sometimes even of battle plans requires serious debate in order to arrive at a consensus.
The meaning of the events in Eastern Europe, why they happened as they did, the validity of the socialist project today, the type of society we want to build are all questions that we are discussing today. What is new is that elements of this discussion have become public, which was not the case before. But this is not something that threatens to divide us. There are even indications that the new political situation will strengthen the unity of the FMLN. • Some of the statements of FMLN leaders appear to be political positions of the FMLN rather than subjects for discussion, like for example, those of Joaquin Villalobos on Marxism and the abandonment of this doctrine. There have also been the statements of Humberto Ortega in Nicaragua which claim that the traditional conception of exercising power must be reexamined.
Within the South and Central American left there is clearly a deep debate about socialism stimulated by the events in Eastern Europe. But it seems to me to be wrong to consider certain individual statements as positions of the FMLN. The statements of Villalobos for example, are different from those of Shafik Handal. In a recent interview, the latter said that the problems of Latin America can only be solved by socialism. This debate is not over in the FMLN.
There are some questions that have now become part of our common program.
For example, the development of a popular economic sector in the occupied zones has become one of the gains of the FMLN. The same can be said for peoples' self-management and the strengthening of political pluralism. Reality has imposed certain theoretical conceptions on our common vision like the debate about socialism. This enriches the discussions.
As far as Marxist-Leninist theory is concerned, one thing is clear for everyone in the FMLN: the neo-liberal model that has been imposed on our country and the rest of the world is not going to resolve the enormous problems that the masses face. On the contrary, these schemes have partly resolved the problems of the capitalist economy at the price of higher unemployment and increasing misery for the mass26 es. An attempt has been made to resolve the contradictions created by the system itself at the expense of the masses.
In our country, at least 70% of the people are poor. This means that there is a very low cultural level for the majority of the population. According to the neoliberal model everything will be resolved by market forces; but the majority of people remain outside of the labor market because they lack the necessary qualifications. • These people do not have the buying power that would allow them to have access to consumer goods.
That's right. They find themselves outside of the market. The liberal model will not only not resolve these problems, it will aggravate them. Poverty is increasing even in countries where conditions are better, like Mexico and Costa Rica. Neoliberalism is not solving these problems. There is complete agreement about this in the FMLN. We are all looking for an alternative model regardless of what we call it. • But some seem tempted to propose an idyllic conception of the social democratic model to the neoliberal model, along the lines of the Swedish model. This seems to be totally impossible.
I agree that we cannot envisage applying the Swedish model nor even the Costa Rican model, not to mention that of the Asian dragons. The concrete conditions do not permit it. It is as if we wanted to make a revolution following the Cuban road without taking into consideration what we think about its current situation; it is impossible to repeat history.
Even the Nicaraguan model is today impossible to emulate. The international situation that helped the Sandinistas take power, not to mention the Cubans, is completely different today. We therefore cannot think in terms of analogous models. The same is true for Sweden which is part of the North and which built part of its economic power by exploiting the South. Even if we wanted to we could not repeat the Swedish model.
It is one thing to dream about this or that model, but another to anchor it in reality. It is Clear that the FMLN must find a different alternative to the neo-liberal model. But as far as precise aspects of it are concerned, like the dictatorship of the proletariat, it seems to me that we must digest the lessons of the past in order to avoid repeating what has failed elsewhere. This doesn't mean that we should claim that those countries really had a dictatorship of the proletariat and therefore reject it. • As a reference point, we can take either the Stalinist example or that outlined by Lenin in State and Revolution or Marx in The Civil war in France, which is far more democratic and opposed to what happened in
International Viewpoint #218 • December 9, 1991 the Soviet Union at the end of the 1920's.
I agree. From a theoretical point of view, the criticisms made in such declarations are correct. But the message that these authors wanted to transmit must be analyzed.
I think that as far the dictatorship of the proletariat is concerned, the experience of the Eastern European countries and the Soviet Union, and even under a different form in Nicaragua, must be avoided. | think that this is the main point. It is clearly dangerous to make statements that can be interpreted in a different way to which they were meant. • You say that the international situation is today different from that which the Nicaraguan of Cuban revolutions faced. This is unquestionable. What do you think this means for El Salvador today?
What had been our model before the events in Eastern Europe is today called into question. On the theoretical plane we must reconsider our alternative model of society. Archetypes are no longer sufficient.
On the practical plane, the model that we can build will be determined by our place in the international situation imposed by the capitalist system. We cannot change this even if we wanted to and even if we contribute to creating the conditions for an overall change of the system, which does not depend on us or the Sandinistas. We must accept and understand the international situation and that we cannot build an isolated model. In my opinion this is impossible — we must fit into the capitalist system. The relations that we had with the Soviet Union have completely changed; there is already a different social situation there, capitalist relations, international prices for oil, and so on. The terms of exchange have been modified; the changes that we can effect will therefore be primarily internal and will be to a large part determined by the international situation that we will have to be part of.
We also have to realize that the model that we develop will necessarily have to be realizable. We realize that any model must have a strong social base. We have therefore to be ready to modify our plans. If we refuse to do so we will isolate ourselves from forces with different interests and opinions. *