CZECHOSLOVAKIA
. • But you do not rule out the neighbourly road.
That is the programme of my whole life. • Time will tell about that. Now, tell me what Civic Forum is. You said something about this in your television broadcast on Sunday, but what you said personally disturbed me. Are you not putting yourself forward in something other than your true colours? Is it really true that you are a voluntary association of citizens and the self-organization of society, or, as it seems to me, a nucleus of a political party with an as yet undetined ideology:
I personally, but not only me personally, but everyone here in the Magic Lantern where we are sitting, agree that the Civic Forum is precisely a forum. "Forum" originally meant a place where whoever wanted to could come and say whatever they wanted. In order to ensure that everybody does not talk at once and thus fail to hear anybody else, some form of coordination is necessary. What we are trying to do here is an improvised and dramatic attempt at coordinating the popular and social movements, mirroring the lack of confidence in the existing structures and social organizations. • The reader might reproach you with being a self-appointed leader.
If that were true there would not be so many people involved here. Without Civic Forum and its coordinating centre there would be a dangerous situation for the whole of society. There would be a danger of various confrontations and conflicts. The Civic Forum offers the possibility for some kind of united action in situations of crisis.... • Active strike unity....
Being ready to strike is more than just a er, which will then be the basis of the real democratic pluralism that we want. • Could the Civic Forum be the realization of this pluralism? It must not become a second National Front. We do not want to set up another giant to confront the existing one. We do not want to close the doors of pluralism, but to fully open them. • Let's go further. Do you know what strikes me? That is, that in the public life, at the various meetings and assemblies, including, if not especially, on Letna plain all we hear is a monologue. One monologue has replaced another, I say. Or do my ears deceive me? Do you not then fear that history could repeat itself?
That is not my impression. As we sit here, representatives of the Civic Forum are meeting in the Oriental salon of the People's House with a member of the CP Presidium and other CC members. Civic Forum does not want to exclude anybody from public life and reckons with all the Communists, who I number at about 1,700,000. • What is your attitude to Communists, to members of the CPCs? Among them are many intelligent, capable and productive people, who have been silenced for decades, just as nonCommunists have been silenced. • Excuse me if I interrupt you, but they did not have to keep silent. There was also the question of their courage.
Possibly they did not absolutely have to keep silent. But if they spoke out, they had problems or were not listened to. I think that our fellow citizens, members of the party, are speaking out along with the whole of society, because they feel that now they have the opportunity to be heard. And this is very important for this society. It seems to me that it is the task of the communists to renew their party as soon as possible, and become a modern party that gives up the totalitarian method of rule and takes its place in the future pluralist democratic system, along with every other political force. And the whole of this uprising, to put it dramatically, that we are going through right now, and which is symbolized by the Civic Forum, is not an uprising against the Communists, but against the totalitarian method of rule. • What kind of person are you? Are you tolerant of opinions that are not yours or close to yours? Do you recognize another truth apart from your own? If it had been possible for me to publish my books in this country for the past 20 years, the public would know me. That I am tolerant and want a tolerant world. There is perhaps not the time at the moment to explain all this. • Why does the word socialism not appear in your programme? Because in the Czechoslovak context the word has lost all meaning. We simply do not know what it means. The word must be newly defined, since it has become a ritual incantation. Everything that the ruling group did not like or which it found uncomfortable, or was done freely, was called anti-socialist. "Socialism" it identified with itself. • Do you rule it out of existence?
Our ideas about the future and about social justice and a democratic social order must not be dominated by the ideas of those who currently say that they are socialists. I presented myself as a socialist perhaps 14 or 15 years ago, but then I stopped using the word simply because it question of preparing strikes to make a point. It is also a form of social selforganization. The strike committees are getting in touch with each other. Some support the Civic Forum, others are setting up their own civic forums. All are connected at the level of information and communication, but there is no central leadership. • I am still not wholly certain that you are not a centre, but never mind. And, if I have understood you correctly, your action has a definite time limit.
Civic Forum will continue to exist only as long as it is needed. Its aim and ideal is real pluralism. It should not continue for so long that it becomes an obstacle to pluralism. What I say is: let us cross over from a totalitarian form of government to real democracy. There would then very quickly arise 10 independent political units and social subjects, independent from each oth
IT'S OVER!
CZECHS ARE
- tE
International Viewpoint #76 • December 25, 1989
had become devalued. Perhaps the real task of socialists is to give the word a new content and thereby return it to the language. • Even so, do you think that we should retain a socialist system or not?
I cannot answer this question because I do not know what it means or what you mean by it. I can only tell you what my idea is. You have to decide yourself if you would call it socialist or not. I believe that we should be decent, neighbourly, upright, and should begin to behave freely and think of other people as well as ourselves. This is the basis for political life and a political system. • How do you envisage this system?
As a democratic and pluralist system, both in the political and economic spheres. Experience has shown that the guarantee of economic prosperity is the autonomy of economic subjects and their plurality, which is unthinkable without political pluralism. • Ownership is not decisive?
1 aon i think so. There could be state, I don't think so. There could be state. cooperative, joint ownership, selfmanaging property. Certainly private property would retain a space, chiefly in the sphere of services and small businesses. In my view, it is not the type of ownership but the prosperity of the enterprises and of the whole country that is decisive from the point of view of economic prosperity. A prosperous economy can then ensure social services to everyone. There is the Swedish model and others that prove this. Such societies offer much better social security, which is what you are driving at in this question, than the existing system in our country. Only prosperity can allow social security. • Nonetheless, we could clearly differ on the theme of just distribution as one of the basic features of a social system. But that is not the theme of our talk. Permit me one final question, if rather hypothetical. Given your position on the political scene: are you prepared to accept some state function, if you are a candidate and are elected?
Everything that I have done, I have done as a citizen of this country, to whose fate I am not indifferent. My original vocation was as a writer, and that is what I would like to stay. I never had political ambitions, and I do not feel qualified. I want to go back to the theatre. I firmly believe and hope that there will be no need and that the general interest, which I consider to also be my own, will not compel me into the situation with which you threaten me. • Thank you. *
CZECHOSLOVAKIA / EAST GERMANY